Sabrina is also laughing at men while she's being sexy and pro sex. That is what makes it different. I think that is what has really pissed people off. I'm here for it.
The silent pauses and then the explanation for said pauses coming halfway through the video sent me. Especially when you look stoically off into the distance LMAO.
I think that the man in the album cover being some random guy, not even in the frame while the photo focuses on Sabrina shows that she is taking back the control in a situation where it is stripped from her
I’m so happy you made this episode public! You always have such thoughtful and nuanced takes yet are fucking FUNNY at the same time, it’s so refreshing. You just exude charisma and it’s a pleasure to listen to.
Loved your take on the Sabrina cover. Nuanced perspectives are difficult to find these days ☺️ Also, I would highly recommend the book “Girl on Girl” by Sophie Gilbert. It’s about media portrayals and objectification of women in early 2000s culture—focuses on music, ads, fashion, movies/tv etc. It’s very well-written and researched. I thought about it a LOT when seeing all the commentary around the album cover.
I feel we are missing something important from the Sabrina cover discourse… and that is the fact it’s a bad photo. I loathe the color grading. The fucking oatmeal carpet and white sheet backdrop is giving mommy’s basement. When I first saw the photo, my mind didn’t even register the content just the quality. A little balloon deflated in my head. Her alternative “approved-by-God” cover is also a nothingburger imo. But, at the end of the day, “Manchild” is currently going platinum in my house. Nevertheless, she streamed.
As a gen z, who has spoken to other gen z men and women about this, I think that it’s not puritanical beliefs that gen z is feeling, but its sex fatigue.
“Non consensually” seeing sexual images everywhere is something people are really tired of. Especially gen z men. Algorithms shove naked women all over men’s social media constantly, even if they don’t specifically seek it out. Any social media account that has a substantial male following eventually becomes littered with soft porn.
Calling gen z “puritanical” is confusing to me because I don’t see that at all in real life. I haven’t noticed any slut shaming with my peers (I am an older gen z tho). The men I’ve dated have all been sex positive and feminist.. and this is coming from someone who went to Catholic school in Alabama.
Another thing that I haven’t seen said much is the aspect of the album depicting violence against women. Hair pulling is a violent act and it lowkey seems like she’s just trying to level up the shock factor because just being sexy isn’t enough anymore. I get what she’s trying to say about “being treated like a dog” but the image is upsetting as someone who has witnessed that kind of violence.
I want to preface this response with saying that generational labels are effectively marketing terms and there are lots of reasons we really shouldn’t be using them when talking about sociological phenomenons. So I’m going to try to avoid that. That’s, of course, not on you, or on Madeline, because that’s just the language we’ve been given so successfully—marketing terms, after all lol. Fortunately though, the important stuff can still get through, even if the cohorts we are describing aren’t all that great to use for nuanced discussions like this.
Anyway, your point about being overwhelmed by sexual content online is fair. A lot of people, especially men, are constantly shown stuff they didn’t ask to see, and yeah, that can absolutely wear you down. I get how that feels more like exhaustion than some kind of moral stance. But I think it’s important to point out that just because that’s your experience (or your circle’s) that doesn’t mean it reflects the bigger picture.
There’s solid data showing that sex is declining among young people, and it’s not just about being online too much and seeing sexual imagery. It’s tied to stress, instability, disconnection, and yeah, a noticeable uptick in more cautious or even conservative attitudes around sex. That doesn’t mean Gen Z is sliding backwards into purity culture, of course, but it can, and far too often does, turn into fuel for reactionary views and sex negativity.
I’ve been thinking more about this, and I keep coming back to how Sabrina Carpenter is basically being made into a stand-in for something much bigger than her. People are clearly reacting to a real sense of exhaustion with how sex shows up in media, how performative and constant it feels, and instead of naming the system that’s causing that, they’re pinning it on the person who happens to be visible right now. It’s not new. It’s just another version of the same cycle where women get turned into lightning rods for a broader discomfort that should be aimed at the structure, not the person. This reaction is so common that they often have their own section in the biography of feminine artists. Marilyn Monroe, Madonna, Britney Spears, etc.
A lot of the criticism isn’t really about the image being “violent” or “too much” for a reason, and that should frankly be a red flag for you, imo. It’s that it doesn’t fit the version of sexual expression people expect right now. There’s this narrow space where sex in media is allowed, but only if it’s wrapped in the right kind of framing. If it’s playful or theatrical or leans too far into pop performance, people start calling it dangerous or shallow. Not because it is, but because it’s not performing sex the way they want it to. These critiques often come to a woman already under scrutiny by the right for a reason. Accusations from some leftist sectors start accusing the artist of sexual commodification and degradation of women. There’s a reason both sides sound similar and ultimately effectuate the same kind of policing.
Yes, sexual commodification is a real issue. It flattens everything, turns desire into content, and it alienates people from their own intimacy. But the problem is, every time you try to critique that, you risk reinforcing the same kind of cultural policing you’re supposedly against. It’s hard to talk about the way sex is used in pop culture without the conversation turning into a subtle kind of shaming, especially when the person at the center of it is a woman who is obviously aware of what she’s doing.
That’s the bind. People are tired of sex being everywhere, but we don’t have great language for expressing that without sounding like we’re bringing back purity culture in a new form. And because there’s so much pressure for sexual expression to be either empowering or harmful, we lose the space to say that something might be complicated, contradictory, or just playful. Sabrina’s album cover doesn’t fit the current mold of what sexual politics are supposed to look like, so people start moralizing. But she isn’t the problem. The exhaustion people feel isn’t because of her.
What people are maybe reacting to is not just sex (framing is everything here!) but sex that feels hollow, hyper-visible, and detached from any real emotional meaning. That isn’t about her really. That’s about the system we’re all trapped in. Until people start naming that for what it is, we’re going to keep making scapegoats out of artists who are just trying to exist inside the same contradictions as everyone else.
As an older gen z as well, I think she’s talking about the resurgence of conservative ideals in the last few years. Modesty is becoming a moral signifier again, trad wife and crunchy mom content is extremely popular & profitable, there’s a strong push for women to marry and have children early (and multiple, with the 2 under 2 propaganda), and in general a lot of content on reels and TikToks that I come across have these weird traditionalist undertones packaged in modern, progressive vernacular—lots of gender essentialism like embracing your divine feminine, submissiveness discourse, ‘real’ masculinity is leading and providing, jokes at the expense of queer people, etc. It’s not always glaring, but if you pay attention you will notice it.
I mean I notice it, but exclusively online. However, I think it mostly stems from a desire to be able to “reap what you sow.” Many women are exhausted from double work (child rearing and generating income). Heck, I’m a lawyer and I feel anything but “empowered” or a like girl boss while I’m being worked to death for other people. I want children but idk when I’ll ever be able to afford them. I’d give anything to live on a farm and raise a family and have the fruit of my labor be my own. I don’t disagree that there has been a “trad wife” trend, but it’s almost entirely performative, because it’s selling a dream that many working class people have: to be able to spend time with their family and have agency in their own lives. It’s not actually happening, because data shows that birth rates are at an all time low, and fewer people are getting married. I’m sure many people will think that the only way to escape the capitalist hell we are in now is to trade it for “traditional values.” I just think writing this issue off as “puritanical conservatism” doesn’t accurately describe what the issue is.
I always love hearing your pop culture takes with your gender studies background! It helps me further consider my own perspective. I love that we can have a Kiki but also be mindful of the media we consume. Thanks for sharing your thoughts as always! 💜
Sabrina is also laughing at men while she's being sexy and pro sex. That is what makes it different. I think that is what has really pissed people off. I'm here for it.
The silent pauses and then the explanation for said pauses coming halfway through the video sent me. Especially when you look stoically off into the distance LMAO.
The Mormons continue to haunt me like I can never truly escape their clutches ☠️☠️☠️
I think that the man in the album cover being some random guy, not even in the frame while the photo focuses on Sabrina shows that she is taking back the control in a situation where it is stripped from her
I’m so happy you made this episode public! You always have such thoughtful and nuanced takes yet are fucking FUNNY at the same time, it’s so refreshing. You just exude charisma and it’s a pleasure to listen to.
Loved your take on the Sabrina cover. Nuanced perspectives are difficult to find these days ☺️ Also, I would highly recommend the book “Girl on Girl” by Sophie Gilbert. It’s about media portrayals and objectification of women in early 2000s culture—focuses on music, ads, fashion, movies/tv etc. It’s very well-written and researched. I thought about it a LOT when seeing all the commentary around the album cover.
new fear unlocked about eye debris 😭
I like your take on the Sabrina controversy.
Great discussion. I’m so happy you discussed this cover.
I feel we are missing something important from the Sabrina cover discourse… and that is the fact it’s a bad photo. I loathe the color grading. The fucking oatmeal carpet and white sheet backdrop is giving mommy’s basement. When I first saw the photo, my mind didn’t even register the content just the quality. A little balloon deflated in my head. Her alternative “approved-by-God” cover is also a nothingburger imo. But, at the end of the day, “Manchild” is currently going platinum in my house. Nevertheless, she streamed.
Okay say it . Alternative cover came out after I recorded but it’s just flat out a better picture LMFAO
Agree! But it feels like a great picture not an album cover, but maybe I’m the buffoon. Anyway, great vid 🫶🏼
As a gen z, who has spoken to other gen z men and women about this, I think that it’s not puritanical beliefs that gen z is feeling, but its sex fatigue.
“Non consensually” seeing sexual images everywhere is something people are really tired of. Especially gen z men. Algorithms shove naked women all over men’s social media constantly, even if they don’t specifically seek it out. Any social media account that has a substantial male following eventually becomes littered with soft porn.
Calling gen z “puritanical” is confusing to me because I don’t see that at all in real life. I haven’t noticed any slut shaming with my peers (I am an older gen z tho). The men I’ve dated have all been sex positive and feminist.. and this is coming from someone who went to Catholic school in Alabama.
Another thing that I haven’t seen said much is the aspect of the album depicting violence against women. Hair pulling is a violent act and it lowkey seems like she’s just trying to level up the shock factor because just being sexy isn’t enough anymore. I get what she’s trying to say about “being treated like a dog” but the image is upsetting as someone who has witnessed that kind of violence.
I want to preface this response with saying that generational labels are effectively marketing terms and there are lots of reasons we really shouldn’t be using them when talking about sociological phenomenons. So I’m going to try to avoid that. That’s, of course, not on you, or on Madeline, because that’s just the language we’ve been given so successfully—marketing terms, after all lol. Fortunately though, the important stuff can still get through, even if the cohorts we are describing aren’t all that great to use for nuanced discussions like this.
Anyway, your point about being overwhelmed by sexual content online is fair. A lot of people, especially men, are constantly shown stuff they didn’t ask to see, and yeah, that can absolutely wear you down. I get how that feels more like exhaustion than some kind of moral stance. But I think it’s important to point out that just because that’s your experience (or your circle’s) that doesn’t mean it reflects the bigger picture.
There’s solid data showing that sex is declining among young people, and it’s not just about being online too much and seeing sexual imagery. It’s tied to stress, instability, disconnection, and yeah, a noticeable uptick in more cautious or even conservative attitudes around sex. That doesn’t mean Gen Z is sliding backwards into purity culture, of course, but it can, and far too often does, turn into fuel for reactionary views and sex negativity.
I’ve been thinking more about this, and I keep coming back to how Sabrina Carpenter is basically being made into a stand-in for something much bigger than her. People are clearly reacting to a real sense of exhaustion with how sex shows up in media, how performative and constant it feels, and instead of naming the system that’s causing that, they’re pinning it on the person who happens to be visible right now. It’s not new. It’s just another version of the same cycle where women get turned into lightning rods for a broader discomfort that should be aimed at the structure, not the person. This reaction is so common that they often have their own section in the biography of feminine artists. Marilyn Monroe, Madonna, Britney Spears, etc.
A lot of the criticism isn’t really about the image being “violent” or “too much” for a reason, and that should frankly be a red flag for you, imo. It’s that it doesn’t fit the version of sexual expression people expect right now. There’s this narrow space where sex in media is allowed, but only if it’s wrapped in the right kind of framing. If it’s playful or theatrical or leans too far into pop performance, people start calling it dangerous or shallow. Not because it is, but because it’s not performing sex the way they want it to. These critiques often come to a woman already under scrutiny by the right for a reason. Accusations from some leftist sectors start accusing the artist of sexual commodification and degradation of women. There’s a reason both sides sound similar and ultimately effectuate the same kind of policing.
Yes, sexual commodification is a real issue. It flattens everything, turns desire into content, and it alienates people from their own intimacy. But the problem is, every time you try to critique that, you risk reinforcing the same kind of cultural policing you’re supposedly against. It’s hard to talk about the way sex is used in pop culture without the conversation turning into a subtle kind of shaming, especially when the person at the center of it is a woman who is obviously aware of what she’s doing.
That’s the bind. People are tired of sex being everywhere, but we don’t have great language for expressing that without sounding like we’re bringing back purity culture in a new form. And because there’s so much pressure for sexual expression to be either empowering or harmful, we lose the space to say that something might be complicated, contradictory, or just playful. Sabrina’s album cover doesn’t fit the current mold of what sexual politics are supposed to look like, so people start moralizing. But she isn’t the problem. The exhaustion people feel isn’t because of her.
What people are maybe reacting to is not just sex (framing is everything here!) but sex that feels hollow, hyper-visible, and detached from any real emotional meaning. That isn’t about her really. That’s about the system we’re all trapped in. Until people start naming that for what it is, we’re going to keep making scapegoats out of artists who are just trying to exist inside the same contradictions as everyone else.
As an older gen z as well, I think she’s talking about the resurgence of conservative ideals in the last few years. Modesty is becoming a moral signifier again, trad wife and crunchy mom content is extremely popular & profitable, there’s a strong push for women to marry and have children early (and multiple, with the 2 under 2 propaganda), and in general a lot of content on reels and TikToks that I come across have these weird traditionalist undertones packaged in modern, progressive vernacular—lots of gender essentialism like embracing your divine feminine, submissiveness discourse, ‘real’ masculinity is leading and providing, jokes at the expense of queer people, etc. It’s not always glaring, but if you pay attention you will notice it.
I mean I notice it, but exclusively online. However, I think it mostly stems from a desire to be able to “reap what you sow.” Many women are exhausted from double work (child rearing and generating income). Heck, I’m a lawyer and I feel anything but “empowered” or a like girl boss while I’m being worked to death for other people. I want children but idk when I’ll ever be able to afford them. I’d give anything to live on a farm and raise a family and have the fruit of my labor be my own. I don’t disagree that there has been a “trad wife” trend, but it’s almost entirely performative, because it’s selling a dream that many working class people have: to be able to spend time with their family and have agency in their own lives. It’s not actually happening, because data shows that birth rates are at an all time low, and fewer people are getting married. I’m sure many people will think that the only way to escape the capitalist hell we are in now is to trade it for “traditional values.” I just think writing this issue off as “puritanical conservatism” doesn’t accurately describe what the issue is.
The Urgent Care visit to discover GRAVEL in your eye! 👁️ poor🦎 👁️
The cheese wedge with the beret is so cute!! Can I ask where you got it?
Target! I think you’re actually seeing a croissant next to a cup of coffee lmfaooo
I always love hearing your pop culture takes with your gender studies background! It helps me further consider my own perspective. I love that we can have a Kiki but also be mindful of the media we consume. Thanks for sharing your thoughts as always! 💜
haha! So good to have you back, Madeline! I rewatched the Benson Boone part because you were KILLING me!
Been dying to hear you weigh in on this, love your thoughts always
Some of the girlies need to watch the documentary Miss Representation